Kentucky Education Blogger Misses Point
Former Lexington principal Richard Day read another Louisville Courier Journal hit piece on the Bluegrass Institute this weekend, then read an Institute response, and followed up with posting his thoughts on his blog.
His conclusion misses the key issue.
Day says:
What makes the C-J's point is BGI's criticism that "cheerleading for the education establishment when it is undeserving is what undermines our public school system." In BGI's hands, it can seem that the public schools are always undeserving. That's just not a true and accurate picture.
I've never seen anything from the Bluegrass Institute suggesting or even implying in any way that "public schools are always undeserving." In fact, the cited quote speaks of the "education establishment," not students or schools. The Bluegrass Institute has spent years pointing out problems that were improperly addressed or even created by the administrators of Kentucky's public school system. Protecting current taxpayers and future taxpayers (yes, the children) by pointing out where those "leaders" fall short is an effort worthy of appreciation, not attacks from those who should be fighting the same fight.
(And yes, I work for the Bluegrass Institute. But as a father of four public school students, I wouldn't cast my lot with them if they were doing anything but showing the way for Kentucky to have world-class public schools.)
posted by Kentucky Progress @ 10/29/2007 08:16:00 AM
30 comments
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30 Comments:
Huh, fancy that.
A career Education professional with years of experience doesn't buy the ramblings of some pseudo-foundation comprised mainly of serial complainers and know-nothings. And a professional new media editorial staff agrees with the educator.
Another media coup for the Bluegrass Institute.
Really guys, as much as you would like it you just can't buy academic respectability by putting up the opinions of a bunch of local blowhards and slapping the name 'Institute' on it.
Bluegrass Institute or Bucktooth Brigade- redundant descriptions when you get down to it.
Very well written smackdown, 10:48. Ouch! Now please explain where Bluegrass Institute criticism of education bureaucrats is off track. And if you can do it without using profanity or calling anyone names, I would really appreciate it.
Bonus points if you can back up the KLTPRC study without, again, using profanity or calling anyone names.
Thanks David, Perhaps you can show me on the list of Authors, Directors, and Advisors for the Bluegrass Institute at least one particpant who's experience and credentials matches or surpasses the author of the original piece in question, Richard Day.
Frankly I think he's got a point about the BI being a big noise coming from an empty box.
I think Kentuckians would rather hear the informed opinion of a professional than the bloviating of an under-credentialed noise machine; whose only value seems to be in shouting its' opinion back at itself and calling on its readership to 'clap louder'.
So David, help me out here- show me the experiential depth in the field of formal mainstream public education that the Bluregrass Institute has to offer.
I can't wait to read your response.
If I thought writing down everyone's degrees would help one child get a better education in Kentucky, 12:28, I'd comply with your silly request.
Instead, I'm still waiting for anyone to show me where BIPPS is wrong in criticizing the KLTPRC study.
"If I thought writing down everyone's degrees would help one child get a better education in Kentucky, 12:28, I'd comply with your silly request..."
KP, it only becomes a 'silly request' when you can't provide proof that your Institue has the qualifications to make the kind of judgement you're putting foward. In fact I've noticed many of the authors on the BI website have a glaring absence of credentials.
Let's be honest, would you ask your plumber to do an assessment of how well your furnace is heating the house? Of course not, you'd ask an HVAC guy.
If the Bluegrass Institute wants to be respected then it's going to have to invest in getting the opinion of qualified individuals. Just putting up the $20 it takes to buy a web address on the internet is not enough to buy you credbility- even if you put the word 'Institute' into it.
Sorry.
If no one were paying attention to the Bluegrass Institute, you would have no reason to be so upset, would you?
And if the arguments could be addressed/criticized on their merits you would have already done that instead of your little anonymous attacks.
David,
Thanks for your comments, but you're confused- I'm not upset, I'm just trying to figure whose opinion has more value; in this case I'm going with the guy who has actual experience in the field.
But you know this is really just a small skirmish in the larger issue- i.e. How do we solve the problems; who has the best judgement in these issues?
Conservatives in general are misunderstood as much as they misunderstand themselves. As a liberal, I don't believe conservatives are necessarily against taxes; I think they're against having their money wasted. If you can show a conservative a reasonable Return On Investment plan for government services, I think in many cases reasonable conservatives would support them.
The education thing is a good example, conservatives want to see an RoI for public education, but then the question becomes who on the conservative side is qualified to make that assessment?
Is it BIPP? I think that is very much in question, particularly with the case in point.
Fine, but your point is that we are wrong because someone who is in the group we are criticizing says we are wrong.
That's not too compelling for those who aren't already singing in your choir.
"Fine, but your point is that we are wrong because someone who is in the group we are criticizing says we are wrong.
Well, let's be fair KP, it's not only Day who says you're wrong but the CJ as well. So that's two mainstream resources countering BIPP's.
Now the reasonable BIPP response would be to say 'this is what our experts are saying based on the data'- only BIPP doesn't appear to actually have a qualified expert. See the point?
If we were asking about the best way to train commercial airplane pilots, or how to start up a Subway franchise- then BIPP might actually have something to say.
Why stop with a list of two critics when you are avoiding making a point -- any point -- about where BIPPS is off base in its criticism of the education establishment?
Until you can come up with something substantial, you aren't making this discussion very challenging.
"Well, let's be fair KP, it's not only Day who says you're wrong but the CJ as well. So that's two mainstream resources countering BIPP's."
1:47, are you now saying the C-J has educational "experts" on its editorial staff?
But more to the point: Centuries of educational NON-specialists who were hugely successful (compared to today's output) in educating youth are laughing from the grave at the mediocrity of our officially-sanctioned educational "experts" .
The myriad successes of home schools, private and parochial schools (who, despite accusations to the contrary educate many socioeconomically disadvantaged youth), and supplemental organizations such as Sylvan prove every day that the methods of the government-sanctioned "experts" are misguided at best. Coercion and monopolistic practices work against these successful groups gaining more influence. Follow the government money trail to see the motivations of the status-quo crowd.
If the "experts" were in private industry, the meager ROI their efforts have garnered would cause them to be drubbed out by the shareholders.
NC and KP- I've noticed you're both taking great pains to avoid claiming any individual as an education expert on the BIPP side; to me this speaks volumes. And I'm sure I'm not to the only one to have noticed.
A Public Policy Thinktank which puts forward an opinion without the benefit of having a person of actual experience in the field is no different than a... what?
Blogger? Letter to the Editor writer? Guy-with-a-sandwich-board-sign?
Now I'm starting to feel like BIPP is lesss like the CATO Institute and more like the Art Bell Show.
Ano, I'm "taking great pains" only to point out that Claims of "expertise" in education are absolutely meaningless unless backed up by measurable results in student performance. Where can your alleged "experts" point to such performance? The only trend line going upward is government funding. The only students doing well in the aggregate, are in alternative systems not endorsed by the "experts".
Anon: Who cares if BIPPS has an expert or not, other than yourself, the Courier-Journal and your expert? If the expert is wrong he's wrong. You have yet to answer David's question.
Quite frankly, the experts on education here in Kentucky appear to have an expertise only in convincing some like yourself, that they are experts. Since KERA was adopted, our public education has gone down hill.
Give me a hick with common sense over an over educated intellectual pin head any day. An academic is someone who knows more and more about less and less until one day he has become tha master of minutaie. That appears to be your champion.
Considering how many times the "experts" have changed their minds on how my children should be taughtin public schol, I would say that the education experts don't know what they are doing. But, please feel free to continue to stroke each other's egos with learning and edcuation. Leave the real world to folks with common sense. Your education experts have already done enough damage to this country to last a generation.
"Give me a hick with common sense over an over educated intellectual pin head any day."
Frankly, normal people don't think this way.
If your transmission's broke, you'd take it to a transmission specialist; if you needed gall bladder surgey, you'd go to a surgeon. And if you really think of education as being the arena of 'Pin Heads' then you probably don't have an education yourself.
I think it's pretty clear from the comments that 'BIPP is a bust' when it comes to having a deep enough bench to tackle the big issues.
I think I had it right the first time, 'know-nothings and complainers'. I guess it's pretty obvious why there's no professional biography at the BIPP website for the bulk of their contributors- because they just don't have the credentials to begin with.
I'll be curious to see if they attempt to add any after this fiasco.
4:28, we can't even get you off home plate to start talking about real education issues. You are stuck in the batter's box whiffing on softball pitches. Please tell me why one needs "education" credentials to use basic algebra -- at most -- to recognize faulty research, to point it out, and to demand more from our public servants.
We aren't talking about transmission specialists here. We can't when you are stuck racing your engine puzzled why the "D" won't drive you forward.
KP I think we all as individual Kentuckians can reasonably discuss what we want to see from our education system.
However when you put something out under the aegis of BIPP I would think that there is- and I think it's something you would desire- a higher standard for content and support.
If this were one person putting out their view, then honestly that's one thing- and there are plenty of people I respect and admire who may not have professonial credentials, but whose experience and insight make their views important to me. But a local, self proclaimed 'Policy' thinktank needs to bring a few more guns to the table than just an insightful amateur.
You call Dr. Day a 'Blogger' as if that were the extent of his experience. Yet I haven't seen anything at BIPP that equals his experience and commitment to education.
Show me where I'm wrong.
You still haven't said anything substantial enough about the issue to agree or disagree with other than that you have some kind of dislike for the Bluegrass Institute.
Say something specific about education in Kentucky and we can discuss that. It is pointless to argue with someone who thinks an education degree or two or three trumps basic math, common sense, and a penchant for telling the truth.
Anon, I'm starting to think you're one of the so-called "education experts" yourself. You seem intent on carving out a privileged, protected place for them without demanding any accountability.
As a retired teacher with years in the classroom and a Master's Degree in Education, I agree with the Bluegrass Institute's opinions on this issue. Am I an expert due to my education and years in the classroon, no, but my experience leads me to my opinion on this matter. Many educators disagree on what needs to be done to improve your educational system. Which ones are right and which ones are not, is a matter of opinion. One educator is no more an expert than another. Results speak louder than opinions.
This is the age old tactic of attacking the messenger.
The truth hurts and the educrat establishment is running from the truth while protecting their power base and paychecks.
Any intelligent observer can see that the "education" establishment in America is no longer about education, but is instead about INDOCTRINATION!
They are called re-education camps in a communist country. We call them public schools and universities.
Baaa, baaa, baaa!
"Perhaps you can show me on the list of Authors, Directors, and Advisors for the Bluegrass Institute at least one particpant who's experience and credentials matches or surpasses the author of the original piece in question..."
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Here we go with the age old lie of "credentials". Intelligence, morality, thoughtful criticism, suggestions for imporvement, and a wealth of ideas do not need "credentials". They speak for themselves.
This is what the liars and deceivers do. They play the "credentials" card when they cannot stand up to the intelligent dissenters.
The fact is that the "credentials" are handed out by the same crowd. The "credentials" have no validity anymore.
Perhaps you can show me more than a handful of PhD's in academia who are anything more than promoters of the age old lie of a "liberal" education Anon 12:28.
The truth is out. Academicians are no longer about education. They are, for the most part, self-serving promoters of the counterfeit saviour.
Hoo-ah!
"I think Kentuckians would rather hear the informed opinion of a professional ..."
The alleged "professionals" ahd their chance for way longer than they deserved and they blew it pal.
"If no one were paying attention to the Bluegrass Institute, you would have no reason to be so upset, would you?"
Amen KP, and the bloviator proves your point by having no intelligent argument, but rather preferring to attack the messenger. It is always the same from the lackluster left.
"...it's not only Day who says you're wrong but the CJ as well."
Give me a break, the Communist Journal is invalid, always has been. What a poor card to play, nothing more than partisanship and leftism in its purest form.
"I'm "taking great pains" only to point out that Claims of "expertise" in education are absolutely meaningless unless backed up by measurable results in student performance."
OUTSTANDING KP!
"Give me a hick with common sense over an over educated intellectual pin head any day."
AMEN!
"If your transmission's broke, you'd take it to a transmission specialist;"
Yes, but when that transmission "specialist" proves to be failure, you go where you get better results, regardless of any claims to being a "specialist".
Credentials stroke egoes, they don't fix a thing. As a matter of fact, relying upon "credentials" in education (now actually indoctrination) has proved to be a huge blunder.
"Results speak louder than opinions."
My point EXACTLY!
FREEOURPOWS
"Credentials stroke egoes, they don't fix a thing. As a matter of fact, relying upon "credentials" in education (now actually indoctrination) has proved to be a huge blunder.
FREEOURPOWS
"
I'd pay every dime I have to put this guy on every TV channel in America as the spokesman for the GOP. Nothing would destroy the party quicker.
Great discussion, guys. Let me fill in some details. I started the Bluegrass Institute with my savings account, no angel donors and a commitment to publish only the truth, defined as: "Conformity with fact or reality." (dictionary.com)
It does not take a PhD to determine truth, but a team committed to uncovering and displaying it. On contract to the Bluegrass Institute almost since Day 1 is one of the foremost authorities on educational testing assessement in the United States: Dick Innes. His work has proven to be accurate and irrefutable.
We have relied on Dick's research to assert truthful claims and challenge less-than-truthful ones in numberous blogs, articles and policy points.
The test of the degree of veracity of Dick's work is this: No person or organization has ever uncovered one detail of Dick's work that has proven to be less than truthful and accurate. All of his publications are on our website at www.bipps.org for your inspection. Go for it...
Chris Derry
President & Founder
Bluegrass Institute
"I'd pay every dime I have to put this guy on every TV channel in America as the spokesman for the GOP. Nothing would destroy the party quicker."
I love ya anon 1:42. Thanks. As you probably aready know, coming from you, that is a compliment.
In case you haven't noticed, I don't believe in political parties.
And Mr. Derry speaks the truth once again...
"The test of the degree of veracity of Dick's work is this: No person or organization has ever uncovered one detail of Dick's work that has proven to be less than truthful and accurate. All of his publications are on our website at www.bipps.org for your inspection. Go for it..."
Salute!
Yes sir, Mr. Derry, as they say in the countryside, 'the proof is in the puddin'. I heard Mr. Innes speak in St. Louis a couple of years ago and he was so full of facts that I couldn't understand how he could retain it all. The guy is amazing, a research pentatholon champion.
Hoo-ah! The light shines and the darkness fades. When put to the test, BIPPS makes the grade. We Kentuckians are indebted to BIPPS. It seems like nobody else is carrying the torch for truth and facts out there.
Thanks Chris et al!
FREEOURPOWS
Mr. Derry,
Thank you for your comments.
Other than having been a former Instructor Pilot and Electrical Engineer, what other experiences or credentials does Mr. Innes bring with his analysis?
I still question the informational value of an analysis provided by someone with no formal or informal experience/understanding in Education; political leanings notwithstanding at this point; although they certainly must be factored in.
12:20,
He can read and do math well enough to recognize a snow job when he sees one.
And please explain what the heck you are talking about when you say Dick Innes has "no formal or informal experience/understanding in Education."
A dozen critical comments on this post and not one word explaining how criticism of the Long-Term Policy report is flawed.
Interesting...
As the saying goes, KP-
"Figures often beguile me... I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics'."
Mark Twain
I do not questions Mr. Innes statistics, just the value of the conclusions he draws from such tortured numbers, given the philosophical ageneda of BIPP.
As far as his formal/informal Educational knowledge, that's pretty obvious.
* Has he he taught or been certified, for any length of time, to teach K-12?
* Is he now or has he ever been an administrator of a public school in Kentucky?
* Does he have any formal credentials in the field of Education- BA; MA; PhD; para educator; etc.
Most formally educated people are wise enough not to try to claim their credentials cross into fields they did not study in. A Historian is not going to tell a Librarian their job, even though they both deal almost exclusively with books.
Do you need a simpler explanation?
Dick Innes doesn't need a master's degree in education to pick out questionable statistics in a report any more than you need a seeing eye dog to fail to see the distinction between the two disciplines.
Dick Innes doesn't need a master's degree in education to pick out questionable statistics...
Okay then; I guess we now know all we need to know to make our own judgements. Thanks.
With your quote up there I can't help but think of the movie line, 'Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!"
" Has he he taught or been certified, for any length of time, to teach K-12?
* Is he now or has he ever been an administrator of a public school in Kentucky?
* Does he have any formal credentials in the field of Education- BA; MA; PhD; para educator; etc."
I hope not, The above mentioned "credentialed ones" are the ones who have screwed it all up.
Like I said, If you take your car to a "transmission specialist" with 20 years experience and he screws up your transmission, but there is an experienced and knowledgeable person out ther who fixes transmissions without you having to take the car back to be re-repaired, which one are you going to go with?
Wake up!
Al Gore-on got an international award for junk science and being in with the current PC crowd. Does that piece of paper now make him some sort of expert? I think not!
Of the 40 or 50 PhD's I have met in my life, I wouldn't rate any more than 4 or 5 of them to be worth their weight in salt for the jobs they hold, and they are the alleged "experts" in their respective fields according to the rest of the "credentialed crowd"!
I rest my case.
The leftie in this thread gives credence to the concept of needing a license to blog. How blind and partisan can one be?
FREEOURPOWS
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